On Demand
Mad About Music
Sunday, September 07, 2008
-
Cardinal Edward Egan
His Eminence Edward Cardinal Egan was born on April 2, 1932, in Oak Park, Illinois, the son of Thomas J. and Genevieve Costello Egan.
Having earned a Bachelor’s degree in Philosophy from Saint Mary of the Lake Seminary in Mundelein, Illinois, he was sent to Rome to complete his seminary studies at the Pontifical North American College in Vatican City where he was ordained on December 15, 1957. In 1958, he received a Licentiate in Sacred Theology from the Pontifical Gregorian University. After ordination, he returned to the United States in 1958, where he served briefly as a curate at Holy Name Cathedral Parish and later as assistant chancellor of the Archdiocese of Chicago and secretary to His Eminence, Albert Cardinal Meyer.
In 1960 Cardinal Egan was named assistant vice-rector and repetitor of Moral Theology and Canon Law at the Pontifical North American College in Vatican City. In 1964, he earned a doctorate in Canon Law “Summa Cum Laude” from the Pontifical Gregorian University and thereafter returned to Chicago, where he served first as secretary to His Eminence, John Cardinal Cody, and later as the co-chancellor of the Archdiocese of Chicago. During this period, he was also the secretary of the Archdiocesan Commissions on Ecumenism and Human Relations and was a member of several interfaith and ecumenical boards and commissions of social concerns throughout the greater Chicago area. Among these might be mentioned the Chicago Conference on Religion and Race, the Leadership Council for Metropolitan Open Communities, and the Interreligious Committee for Urban Affairs. During this period, he likewise participated in numerous ecumenical undertakings, among them the Anglican-Roman Catholic Dialogue of the United States Catholic Conference and Protestant Episcopal Church of America, the North American Academy of Ecumenists, and the Chicago Ecumenical Dialogue.
In 1971 Cardinal Egan returned to Rome as a judge of the Tribunal of the Sacred Roman Rota, a position he held until his episcopal consecration in May of 1985. While in Rome, he was as well a professor of Canon Law at the Pontifical Gregorian University; a professor of Civil and Criminal Procedure at the Studium Rotale, the law school of the Rota; a commissioner of the Congregation for the Sacraments and Divine Worship; a consultor of the Congregation for the Clergy; and in 1982 one of six canonists who reviewed the new Code of Canon Law with His Holiness, Pope John Paul II, before its promulgation in 1983.
Cardinal Egan was consecrated a bishop on May 22, 1985, in the Basilica of Saints John and Paul in Rome by His Eminence, Bernardin Cardinal Gantin, Prefect of the Sacred Congregation for Bishops, with His Eminence, John Cardinal O’Connor, Archbishop of New York and His Excellency, the Most Reverend John R. Keating, Bishop of Arlington, as co-consecrators.
Cardinal Egan served as Auxiliary Bishop and Vicar for Education of the Archdiocese of New York from 1985 – 1988.
On November 8, 1988, Pope John Paul II appointed Cardinal Egan to be the Third Bishop of the Diocese of Bridgeport. He was installed on December 14, 1988.
Felix Mendelssohn Piano Concerto in G minor, Op. 25. Third movement [excerpt]. Gewandhausorchester Leipzig. Herbert Blomstedt. Jean-Yves Thibaudet, piano. Decca 289-468600-2.
César Franck Panis Angelicus, [excerpt]. Vienna Symphony Orchestra. Uwe Christian Harrer. José Carreras, tenor. Philips 442 296-2.
Franz Schubert Piano Trio No. 1 in B flat, Op. 99. Second movement [excerpt]. Isaac Stern, violin, Leonard Rose, cello, Eugene Istomin, piano. Sony Classical SK 92740
Ludwig van Beethoven Piano Sonata No. 8 in C-minor, Op. 13 "Pathétique". First movement [excerpt]. Artur Schnabel, piano. Documents LC 12281.
John Kander and Fred Ebb “New York, New York”. Frank Sinatra. Reprise 26501-2.
Johannes Brahms Intermezzo, No. 2, Op. 117. Arthur Rubinstein, piano. BMG Classics 09026 63010-2
Richard Strauss Der Rosenkavalier. Final trio from Act III. Philharmonia Orchestra. Herbert von Karajan. Teresa Stich-Randall, Christa Ludwig, Elisabeth Schwarzkopf. EMI Classics 5 67609 2.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
GILBERT KAPLAN: Welcome back as we open our new season with my guest, the Archbishop of New York, Cardinal Edward Egan.
[Theme music]
For the last eight years he has served as the Archbishop of New York -- a period filled with enormous challenges and difficult decisions. Throughout it all he has never wavered from what he regards as his most important contribution --- leading people in prayer. And along the way music has always been his companion. He is an accomplished pianist and often turns to music both at difficult times and for consolation. Cardinal Edward Egan, welcome to “Mad About Music”.
CARDINAL EDWARD EGAN: Well thank you for having me, Gil. I’m delighted to be here.
KAPLAN: Now in my introduction I mentioned you are an accomplished pianist. -- As I understand so is the Pope. Now when he was in New York, with all the masses and all the ceremonies, did you have a chance to speak with him at all about music?
EGAN: When he was here, we were in the Pope-mobile, as they say, coming away from St. Patrick’s Cathedral, after the mass, and he said to me, “What are you playing?” And I said, “Well, Your Holiness, I’m a little ashamed to say that I don’t play Haydn and Mozart and things of that sort anymore.” I said, “I actually play things like Debussy and Ravel.” And he said, “Well, that’s OK, too.” So I have permission for that, you know.”
KAPLAN: I read somewhere that the Pope, from time to time, plays duets with his former housekeeper, who was a music teacher at one point. Have you ever played together, as a duet, for fun or anything?
EGAN: No, I’ve never done that. I would be happy to try, but, no. I’d never heard that story, too. Is that right?
KAPLAN: Yes. I suppose I ought to ask you, I mean, who is the more accomplished pianist, you or the Pope?
EGAN: Oh, I have to answer, the Pope.
KAPLAN: Even if he wasn’t?
EGAN: Actually, I’ve never heard him play, to tell you the truth, and he’s never heard me play.
KAPLAN: All right, we’ll talk further about the Pope and music, but first give me a sense of the role music plays in your life. Is it something you just enjoy or are you one of those who just can’t live without it?
EGAN: I’m definitely in the “I can’t live without it” group. I’ve been in love with music all of my life, and frankly, I pretty much learned music on my own. I was a boy that went to a library and brought home the 40th Symphony of Mozart, and I remember putting it on the electric phonograph and saying, “My heavens! Where have I been? What is this?” So then I went back to the library, and it was in Oak Park, Illinois, and I brought home the Brahms Fourth Symphony and the Beethoven Fourth Piano Concerto, and after that, if I could use this expression, I was hooked and I’ve been hooked ever since.
KAPLAN: Well, that’s fascinating. Now, I understand you’re an accomplished pianist, and almost all of your selections, all but one today, are piano music, so tell me how you first got to that.
EGAN: I had an aunt who played on WCFL in Chicago, that was the Chicago Federation of Labor, many, many years ago, in the thirties. And she was a pianist, and very fine. And Aunt Dorothy decided that she was going to make a pianist out of me, and so very early in the game, I learned to play all the popular songs from my aunt, and then I decided after I had heard Mozart and Brahms and Beethoven and the rest of them, that I was going to move in a different direction. So I did have the great advantage of a very fine piano teacher. She died, and then I got another one, and I would say that from then, I really learned to love music.
KAPLAN: Well that’s fascinating. And then, let’s use that as a natural transition into your first selection today, which is piano music, and this case Mendelssohn.
EGAN: Yes, I’ll tell you why I chose this. This was the first piano concerto I ever learned to play, and I actually played it in a recital in Oak Park many, many years ago.
KAPLAN: How old were you?
EGAN: Oh, I was twelve or thirteen. And I worked so hard to get the third movement of this up to tempo, and I had it memorized. As we used to say, I had it “aced”. And it’s a concerto that you never hear. It’s very seldomly performed; it’s really often I think seen as one of his less important works. But it’s melodic and lovely, and it was the kind of thing that a twelve or thirteen year old boy could handle, and I was very proud to be playing a piano concerto, and that was my first. I think it’s very, very beautiful, and I’ve always loved Mendelssohn; it’s full of melody, and I hope that your listeners, when they hear it, will like it as well.
[Music]
KAPLAN: An excerpt from the third movement of Mendelssohn’s first piano concerto, the Gewandhaus Orchestra Leipzig under the baton of Herbert Blomstedt with soloist Jean-Yves Thibaudet. A work played by my guest today on “Mad About Music”, the Archbishop of New York, Cardinal Edward Egan, when he was only about 12 years old. Now we were talking before about you and the Pope both playing the piano. I understand he plays a half hour a day -- almost every day. How about you?
EGAN: I wish I could do the same, and I ought to take his example, but I don’t play that much at all.
KAPLAN: Well, you know, you mentioned that the Pope’s favorites are somewhat different from yours, at least what you’re playing, and growing up with Mozart, the Pope said, that his music “thoroughly penetrated his soul”. Is there any one composer about which you could say the same thing, that his music thoroughly penetrated your soul?
EGAN: Well, I’m a little embarrassed to give the answer, but I’m going to give it anyway. I would say that the composer who moves me and has moved me all my life, more than perhaps anyone else, is no less than Frédéric Chopin.
KAPLAN: Why should one be embarrassed about that? He may be the greatest composer of piano music.
EGAN: I think one of the great, great composers of all time, quite apart from just the piano music, I think the art of his composition is magnificent. Now, I know his orchestrations were not great, but a lot of people, it seems to me, think of Chopin as something less than Beethoven and Brahms and Mozart and so forth. But I believe if you listen to it, this master of melody, this master of unexpected harmonies, this master, it seems to me, of a whole national understanding of music, and I’m from Chicago, you know, so I have a lot of Polish connections. I believe that he is the one who has gone deepest into my own heart.
KAPLAN: And yet today, I see you have no Chopin on your list, but I understand you’ve selected music around which it impacted on your life. But I’m surprised to see, and I was surprised to see, when your list came in, that there is no sacred music on your list. No Bach B minor Mass, no Verdi Requiem, no Mozart Requiem, Brahms.
EGAN: Well, I’ll tell you, for me, all great music is sacred. And I would not have chosen the ones that you mentioned because I would think of this program as not a program about religious music, and when the Pope was here, I worked for hours and hours on the choice of what we would be singing. And sacred music means a whole lot to me, but the music I chose, I tried to make kind of the music that’s sacred for everyone.
KAPLAN: Well, while we’re talking about church music, I wonder, do you have a favorite hymn?
EGAN: Actually, I do. I would say its César Franck’s Panis Angelicus. It’s a masterpiece I think in every way, it’s marvelously prayerful, it’s one of the most familiar hymns by choirs that are able to do great music, and I had it for the funerals of both my mother and my father. And the Holy Father started out his visit in the United States in Washington. And they sang the Panis Angelicus in Washington, and I knew they were going to sing it, and so they took it away from us, we weren’t able to repeat it, you know. But I would say that the Panis Angelicus of César Franck is a masterpiece and a marvelous prayer and I would list it as number one.
[Music]
KAPLAN: An excerpt of César Franck’s Panis Angelicus, sung by José Carreras with the Vienna Symphony Orchestra led by Uwe Christian Harrer. The favorite hymn of my guest today on “Mad About Music” the Archbishop of New York, Cardinal Edward Egan. You know I understand there was a secret weapon behind the choir preparing so diligently at St. Joseph’s for the Pope, and I suppose at St. Patrick’s, also. I read that you had sent a big box of chocolates to the choir at St. Patrick’s when they were rehearsing. Was this a reward or a bribe?
EGAN: Well, I sent more than one. And I believe that the choir should know that the local bishop esteems their work and admires them and loves them. And so I sent more than one box of chocolate, and it was just kind of my way of saying, “hang in there, you’re doing a great job”.
KAPLAN: All right, well you’re doing a great job so far, so then, let’s return to your music list, and our next selection on that list is Schubert.
EGAN: Right. You were mentioning that my list is largely piano music. However, when I was in high school, we had a wonderful orchestra. And there were many who played the piano, and we didn’t need another pianist. And so I was assigned to learn the cello, believe it or not. So, I learned to play the cello very poorly. And so I played the cello in high school and in college and I loved the music of Schubert in a very special way. And one time, I discovered the Piano Trio in B flat, and someone asked me, if you only could take one piece of music with you to the desert island, what would it be? And I answered the second movement of this absolutely exquisite creation of Schubert.
[Music]
KAPLAN: An excerpt from the second movement of Schubert’s Trio No. 1 with Isaac Stern on the violin, Leonard Rose – cello, and Eugene Istomin, on the piano. A selection of my guest today on “Mad About Music”, the Archbishop of New York, Cardinal Edward Egan. When we return we’ll discuss how the music program at St. Patrick’s Cathedral stacks up against the competition, what other churches are doing in the city.
[Station Break]
This is Gilbert Kaplan with my guest today on “Mad About Music”, the Archbishop of New York, Cardinal Edward Egan. Let’s now turn to the music program of St. Patrick’s Cathedral. How do you feel the program stacks up against what the other churches in the city are doing?
EGAN: Well, I think it’s improving. You may know that now we have a rather impressive concert series, and we can do much more, it seems to me, and I know that a lot of the people in New York who are friendly with me would like to see that music program for the general public improved, because we do, I think, eight major concerts a year. And they’re free concerts, and they sometimes would be completely filling the Cathedral; at other times, maybe a half or two thirds, and I think it’s a great contribution to the community, because going to a concert these days is a very expensive enterprise. And so I would say, stay tuned, I hope we begin to do even more.
KAPLAN: I think in general, there is an impression that, of surprise that, given your passion for music, that the financial resources that are used for music at St. Patrick’s are probably not as much as many people think they ought to be. Now, I have no idea what they are, but what do you say about that?
EGAN: Well, I’ve never heard it said, to tell you the truth, the financial resources for the Cathedral music are pretty much determined by the rector of the Cathedral. And I’ve not known that they’ve felt that they were, you know, not having enough money available. I’ll look into that but you know, you never can really do all that you’d like to do. I believe that we’ve tried to do a good job, and I didn’t know that people felt that the financial resources were inadequate; I’ll have to talk to Monsignor Ritchie and see what the financial resources are.
KAPLAN: OK. Well, in an interview, you were asked what your biggest accomplishment in New York has been during your tenure here, and you said, “Leading people in Prayer.”
EGAN: Right.
KAPLAN: What would you regard as your most significant accomplishment in shaping the music program at the Cathedral?
EGAN: I think that I have chosen a very excellent director, and I think that together we have decided that we would see to it that we kept the total tradition of sacred music, of church music, not just what we might call the last thirty or so years. There was getting to be, it seemed to me, too much of the more recent hymns, and then, too much of the music that goes back to the classical polyphony of the 1500’s. I have tried to see to it that we cover the waterfront; and if we do that, that would be, forgive this – my greatest contribution.
KAPLAN: Well, however broad or narrow the field is there is never a controversy over whether to include Beethoven, right? And I see he is the next composer on your list today.
EGAN: Yes, no controversy at all. A giant of giants. I lived in Rome twenty-three years, and in the middle time that I lived in Rome, I was a professor at a seminary, the North American College in Rome. And one day, I met a pianist by the name of Leonard Pennario. And Leonard had a marvelous personality, an ebullient, smiling, happy, enthusiastic personality. And we started talking, and in the course of the conversation, I mentioned that I occasionally played the piano. So he said, “What are you playing?” I said, “Well, you know, I’m kind of playing the Pathétique of Beethoven”. So, he said, “Well, play it for me.” So, I played the first two movements. I didn’t try the third. And I received a master class from him. He pulled up the chair, told me what I was doing wrong, especially in the second movement, keeping the melody absolutely in control and watching out that I was changing the rhythms in the second movement, and so forth and even corrected some of my notes in the first movement, and so forth, and I felt that that was my one and only master class. And I would say that I knew few people that loved to perform as this man did. So, he’s my one master class, and that’s why I mentioned the lovely Pathétique.
[Music]
KAPLAN: An excerpt from the First Movement of Beethoven’s Pathétique Sonata performed by the legendary Artur Schnabel -- both the music and the performer chosen by my guest today on “Mad About Music”, the Archbishop of New York, Cardinal Edward Egan. You know, before we were discussing music at St. Patrick’s and now I’d like to ask you about another aspect of church music which is a genuine fight that seems to be brewing concerning electric guitars during the mass. I understand that in Italy they often use electric guitars and in Spain, Flamenco music has even shown up. But the Pope has demanded an end to this, saying guitars are inconsistent with what music in the church ought to be. Now one Cardinal has gone public to disagree. I wrote down what he said: “better to have guitars on the altar than empty churches.” Where do you come out on this?
EGAN: Oh, I would have no problem with that either. We just simply have not had at the Cathedral any tradition of that kind. But we have many, many parishes, here in the Archdiocese of New York, that have guitars, and music that would be very much music of the people of the particular area. So, while St. Patrick’s Cathedral is something quite apart, let me assure you that next Sunday, I believe, I’ll be in a parish, Sacred Heart Parish here in Manhattan, and I understand I am to do the first mass in English and the second mass in Spanish. Now, I am sure, that during that second mass, you’re going to have guitars and all of this and that, and it’s wonderful. And it will be in Spanish and so forth. I don’t know that the Holy Father has said that we are not to have guitars in church and so forth, because we have them, and no one has ever told me not to.
KAPLAN: Well, I think if I can believe what I read in the newspapers, he did give a talk on this and was totally against it. And I wondered: what authority does the Pope have on a matter like that within the church? Can he only give advice and hope people follow him? Or, can he actually make it an edict that there will not be, say, electric guitars in churches?
EGAN: Well I suppose he could make it an edict, but I’m sure that that’s not the kind of thing that he’d be making edicts about. The parishes that have these kinds of things are expressing something that’s truly theirs, it’s something that’s truly holy, and I would be there delighted and I am, Sunday after Sunday, when I am away from the Cathedral.
KAPLAN: Well, this discussion of what is appropriate music in the church leads nicely to the next section of our show which we call the “wildcard” where you have a chance to pick music that is not classical or opera, sacred music, it can be anything - as wild as you like by the way. So what did you bring us today?
EGAN: My selection is “New York, New York”, not the one written by Leonard Bernstein for “On the Town,” but rather the one that John Kander and Fred Ebb wrote for Liza Minnelli in the film that made her so very famous, and of course the song that Frank Sinatra gave to the world in many ways. I am not a New Yorker, as you know; I came here first as an auxiliary bishop to Cardinal O’Connor in 1985, and then I left in 1989, but came back in 2000, so I have tried to become a real New Yorker. I, you know tell you, with striking my breast, I was a Cubs fan, you know, all my life. And of course, I’ve turned my back on that. I’m completely a Yankees fan now. But, this to me sums up New York in a very special way for someone who has become a New Yorker, and hopes to live the rest of his life right here in New York. I think it’s a great song, and I know that in the Olympics in 1984, it was played; and at Yankee Stadium, as you know there was a bit of controversy about it, whether they would play the Liza Minnelli performance, or the Frank Sinatra performance. And it’s a great song, all you have to hear is that little beginning, that is the background, before you know the whole world’s going to start singing, and so, being a New Yorker of recent vintage, I think this sort of sums up my understanding of this wonderful, wonderful town.
[Music]
KAPLAN: “New York, New York” sung by Frank Sinatra, the “wildcard” choice of my guest on “Mad About Music”, the Archbishop of New York, Cardinal Edward Egan. Now as you know your “wildcard” is one of your only selections not for the piano. So what about performing piano music? Who are your favorite pianists?
EGAN: I would have to say that for Chopin, whom I mentioned, I don’t think anyone touches Rubinstein. I think that he simply knocked the ball out of the park. And I could mention this, too, that I actually heard Rubinstein play both of the Chopin concerti at Orchestra Hall, many, many years ago. And he was up in years, and it wasn’t the same Rubinstein that had done the recordings many years before, but the feeling in Orchestra Hall in Chicago was a feeling like no other that you ever could imagine. You felt as though the melodies were flowing out right from that piano right into your heart and back, and I’ll never forget that he came out and did two encores. And I didn’t see it, but somebody said to me that at a certain point, he turned to a lady in the audience and winked at her before he started the Nocturne in E flat, you know? And I think it made it all the more wonderful. I hope it was true. But certainly Rubinstein for Chopin. When you talk about Beethoven, I believe that my hero of heroes always was and always will be Artur Schnabel. Now, that really dates me, I know; but Schnabel’s recording of the thirty-two sonatas is available now, you can buy it, and I really think it’s the criterion.
KAPLAN: Well then, I think then let’s continue on with another piano work. This one by Brahms.
EGAN: The beauty of this piece is that it’s, I think, the quintessential expression of subtlety. There’s nothing that’s pushed in this. This is a subtle, beautiful development by Brahms, and I would say that this intermezzo, the second in the Opus 117, is particularly beloved for me because when I studied it, the teacher I had had been studying it in Nantucket with Leonard Shure. Leonard Shure was a well-known pianist, who was the assistant to Artur Schnabel. So, when I studied this intermezzo, in fact all three of them of the opus, I always felt that Schnabel was teaching me through Leonard Shure, and of course through my teacher. So, whenever I listen to this lovely, subtle piece of music, I think of myself as sort of inheriting some of the wonder that Leonard Shure put into his Brahms. And of course that Schnabel taught him.
[Music]
KAPLAN: Brahms’ Intermezzo No. 2 performed by pianist Arthur Rubinstein, music chosen by my guest today on “Mad About Music”, the Archbishop of New York, Cardinal Edward Egan. When we return I’ll be asking Cardinal Egan whether music can have the same power as prayer.
[Station Break]
This is Gilbert Kaplan with my guest today on “Mad About Music”, the Archbishop of New York, Cardinal Edward Egan. As we get deeper into the show today it becomes increasingly clear, I think, that for you music is something highly personal. So, I'd like to know a bit more about the power of music—that is the power of music in your own life. The Pope has said that music is – and this is a direct quote: “an authentic art, just like prayer.” So, along with prayer, do you ever turn to music at difficult moments for consolation, or when you just have to make a difficult decision?
EGAN: Absolutely. And I would have to say that I do see music as a prayer. I believe that our principal duty here in this world is to give adoration to our God. And I believe when we admire what is good and true and beautiful, we are admiring a reflection, we are seeing in what is good, true and beautiful, some kind of a reflection of the Divinity. So I see music as a prayer as well.
KAPLAN: Do you have any moments you can reflect on, when you faced making a difficult decision, when you thought, maybe I’ll put a little bit of this or that on, and what might it have been that you would put on?
EGAN: Well, I can’t say anything like that, but I’ll say something near it. When I was deciding whether or not I would go to a seminary, I remember making the decision in Holy Name Cathedral in Chicago, listening to what we call the “Tenebre,” written by da Victoria, and the choir at that time was at the level that I hope our choir here in New York will be with the great classical polyphonist, one day, and at this “Tenebre”, and the way we used to have it during Holy Week, the lights were all turned off, and the candles were extinguished, one by one, the apostles leaving the Lord. And I remember being swept up in the beauty of that magnificent 16th century masterpiece as a boy. And this had a big effect upon my decision.
KAPLAN: How emotional is your response to music? For example, do you find yourself at times in tears when you’re listening to music?
EGAN: I can’t say I’d be in tears, no. I wish I could give you a case of music that had done it to me. I think music really more buoys me up than anything else.
KAPLAN: Well, my next question is then, I guess, not really about buoying you up, because as someone who regularly officiates at funerals and who loves music so much, I wonder if you’ve decided at all what music you would like played at your own funeral?
EGAN: I didn’t expect that question, and let me tell you what I would do if I had the opportunity. And, I would say that if it ever were possible for me to choose what it would be, it would be the Perosi Requiem. I don’t know what’ll happen, but if they did have the Perosi Requiem, it would be wonderful.
KAPLAN: That’s a wonderful answer. I hope there are a few other questions that surprised you, but we’ll go on. Now, if there’s any music, we’ve been talking about emotional music, if there is any music that can surely touch your emotions, it’s your final selection, the extraordinary concluding trio from Strauss’ Rosenkavalier.
EGAN: Well, it’s a triumph and it’s I think as beautiful as anything you’d ever want to hear. Let me tell you how I came to love Der Rosenkavalier. When I was a seminarian, back in the 1950’s, one of my classmates was the now Cardinal Francis Stafford, who is a Cardinal in Rome. And Frank was not terribly informed about music, but he put up with my enthusiasms, and we actually managed to get tickets in Rome for Das Rheingold in Bayreuth. And so the two of us went to hear Das Rheingold. And when it was over, Frank turned to me and said, “I have no idea what you could possibly have heard or seen in that. I don’t like it at all.” Well, Das Rheingold is a kind of a heavy start for one’s operatic experience, but in any event, we continued down toward Rome. We went to Munich, and in Munich, I actually had two tickets for Der Rosenkavalier, with von Karajan and Elisabeth Schwarzkopf. So we went in and heard that, and after that, as we walked out, Cardinal Stafford became an opera fan. And I’ve kidded him many times that I really am the one that brought him forward in the musical world. So, having heard that incredible performance with no less than Schwarzkopf and von Karajan, and I believe it was in the Prinzregenten Theater in Munich. I’m 99% sure. I have never forgotten that, and I love it now, and there is a magnificent recording, of course, with Schwarzkopf and von Karajan, and when you get to that ending with that trio, you never think it’s going to stop going up and finally it achieves whatever it is that we all want to achieve, that marvelous resolution, and so I have such a fine memory of having taught opera to Cardinal Stafford through Schwarzkopf and von Karajan, and I thought that’s what I would choose.
[Music]
KAPLAN: The final trio from Richard Strauss’ Der Rosenkavalier sung by Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, Christa Ludwig and Teresa Stich-Randall with the Philharmonia Orchestra, all under the baton of Herbert von Karajan, the final selection of my guest today on “Mad About Music”, the Archbishop of New York, Cardinal Edward Egan. Powerful music that trio. And music you used to seduce another Cardinal into appreciating opera. And I say seduced purposely because another guest on “Mad About Music” also selected that trio from Rosenkavalier. That guest, the well-known Hollywood and Broadway director, Mike Nichols, he picked it for a different reason. He used it earlier in his life, he said, for seduction of the more traditional type, as I’d like you now to hear it in his own words:
NICHOLS: The Trio from the Rosenkavalier was just out and out, a way of getting girls, you know. It was simply saying, “have I got something to play for you”, and sitting them down and playing them the trio, which it has to be said, almost always worked.
KAPLAN: So that’s Mike Nichols about the seductive power of Rosenkavalier. What do you think about that?
EGAN: Well, I think that Richard Strauss seduces us all. And not just in Der Rosenkavalier. I think that Ariadne auf Naxos and especially the wonderful section that they give to the young Italian girl that sings music almost as marvelous as that trio. So, I would have to say to Mr. Nichols that he ought to broaden his spectrum and take a look and see if Ariadne might do the job too.
KAPLAN: All right well, beyond seduction, you know there’s a lot of fantasy in Rosenkavalier and we have a fantasy portion of our program which I call “Fantasyland”, where every guest, and that includes you, has to reveal their fantasies, their musical fantasies. And in your case, having studied the piano so much, I’d like to rule that out as a fantasy. And I’d like you to tell us that if you could be a big star, an opera singer, a composer, a musician playing the violin, a conductor, what would it be?
EGAN: Well, you’ll have to forgive me, but I often wondered what would have happened if I had pursued music and had had an opportunity to become a choir director, believe it or not. I would say that if you handed me the baton, and I had this choir in front of me, my fantasy would be to direct a great choir as part of a mass, as part of a liturgical service, as part of a worship. I wouldn’t be interested in doing it necessarily in a concert hall. But, St. Patrick’s Cathedral would be wonderful, but they’ve given me another job and so I put that into the hands of someone else with far greater talent.
KAPLAN: Well, we’re talking about fantasies, of course, and you certainly could do it sometime, why not? Cardinal Edward Egan, you’ve been a superb, wonderful guest, and provide a powerful example of the power music can provide in all our lives. This is Gilbert Kaplan, for “Mad About Music.”
César Franck Panis Angelicus, [excerpt]. Vienna Symphony Orchestra. Uwe Christian Harrer. José Carreras, tenor. Philips 442 296-2.
Franz Schubert Piano Trio No. 1 in B flat, Op. 99. Second movement [excerpt]. Isaac Stern, violin, Leonard Rose, cello, Eugene Istomin, piano. Sony Classical SK 92740
Ludwig van Beethoven Piano Sonata No. 8 in C-minor, Op. 13 "Pathétique". First movement [excerpt]. Artur Schnabel, piano. Documents LC 12281.
John Kander and Fred Ebb “New York, New York”. Frank Sinatra. Reprise 26501-2.
Johannes Brahms Intermezzo, No. 2, Op. 117. Arthur Rubinstein, piano. BMG Classics 09026 63010-2
Richard Strauss Der Rosenkavalier. Final trio from Act III. Philharmonia Orchestra. Herbert von Karajan. Teresa Stich-Randall, Christa Ludwig, Elisabeth Schwarzkopf. EMI Classics 5 67609 2.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
GILBERT KAPLAN: Welcome back as we open our new season with my guest, the Archbishop of New York, Cardinal Edward Egan.
[Theme music]
For the last eight years he has served as the Archbishop of New York -- a period filled with enormous challenges and difficult decisions. Throughout it all he has never wavered from what he regards as his most important contribution --- leading people in prayer. And along the way music has always been his companion. He is an accomplished pianist and often turns to music both at difficult times and for consolation. Cardinal Edward Egan, welcome to “Mad About Music”.
CARDINAL EDWARD EGAN: Well thank you for having me, Gil. I’m delighted to be here.
KAPLAN: Now in my introduction I mentioned you are an accomplished pianist. -- As I understand so is the Pope. Now when he was in New York, with all the masses and all the ceremonies, did you have a chance to speak with him at all about music?
EGAN: When he was here, we were in the Pope-mobile, as they say, coming away from St. Patrick’s Cathedral, after the mass, and he said to me, “What are you playing?” And I said, “Well, Your Holiness, I’m a little ashamed to say that I don’t play Haydn and Mozart and things of that sort anymore.” I said, “I actually play things like Debussy and Ravel.” And he said, “Well, that’s OK, too.” So I have permission for that, you know.”
KAPLAN: I read somewhere that the Pope, from time to time, plays duets with his former housekeeper, who was a music teacher at one point. Have you ever played together, as a duet, for fun or anything?
EGAN: No, I’ve never done that. I would be happy to try, but, no. I’d never heard that story, too. Is that right?
KAPLAN: Yes. I suppose I ought to ask you, I mean, who is the more accomplished pianist, you or the Pope?
EGAN: Oh, I have to answer, the Pope.
KAPLAN: Even if he wasn’t?
EGAN: Actually, I’ve never heard him play, to tell you the truth, and he’s never heard me play.
KAPLAN: All right, we’ll talk further about the Pope and music, but first give me a sense of the role music plays in your life. Is it something you just enjoy or are you one of those who just can’t live without it?
EGAN: I’m definitely in the “I can’t live without it” group. I’ve been in love with music all of my life, and frankly, I pretty much learned music on my own. I was a boy that went to a library and brought home the 40th Symphony of Mozart, and I remember putting it on the electric phonograph and saying, “My heavens! Where have I been? What is this?” So then I went back to the library, and it was in Oak Park, Illinois, and I brought home the Brahms Fourth Symphony and the Beethoven Fourth Piano Concerto, and after that, if I could use this expression, I was hooked and I’ve been hooked ever since.
KAPLAN: Well, that’s fascinating. Now, I understand you’re an accomplished pianist, and almost all of your selections, all but one today, are piano music, so tell me how you first got to that.
EGAN: I had an aunt who played on WCFL in Chicago, that was the Chicago Federation of Labor, many, many years ago, in the thirties. And she was a pianist, and very fine. And Aunt Dorothy decided that she was going to make a pianist out of me, and so very early in the game, I learned to play all the popular songs from my aunt, and then I decided after I had heard Mozart and Brahms and Beethoven and the rest of them, that I was going to move in a different direction. So I did have the great advantage of a very fine piano teacher. She died, and then I got another one, and I would say that from then, I really learned to love music.
KAPLAN: Well that’s fascinating. And then, let’s use that as a natural transition into your first selection today, which is piano music, and this case Mendelssohn.
EGAN: Yes, I’ll tell you why I chose this. This was the first piano concerto I ever learned to play, and I actually played it in a recital in Oak Park many, many years ago.
KAPLAN: How old were you?
EGAN: Oh, I was twelve or thirteen. And I worked so hard to get the third movement of this up to tempo, and I had it memorized. As we used to say, I had it “aced”. And it’s a concerto that you never hear. It’s very seldomly performed; it’s really often I think seen as one of his less important works. But it’s melodic and lovely, and it was the kind of thing that a twelve or thirteen year old boy could handle, and I was very proud to be playing a piano concerto, and that was my first. I think it’s very, very beautiful, and I’ve always loved Mendelssohn; it’s full of melody, and I hope that your listeners, when they hear it, will like it as well.
[Music]
KAPLAN: An excerpt from the third movement of Mendelssohn’s first piano concerto, the Gewandhaus Orchestra Leipzig under the baton of Herbert Blomstedt with soloist Jean-Yves Thibaudet. A work played by my guest today on “Mad About Music”, the Archbishop of New York, Cardinal Edward Egan, when he was only about 12 years old. Now we were talking before about you and the Pope both playing the piano. I understand he plays a half hour a day -- almost every day. How about you?
EGAN: I wish I could do the same, and I ought to take his example, but I don’t play that much at all.
KAPLAN: Well, you know, you mentioned that the Pope’s favorites are somewhat different from yours, at least what you’re playing, and growing up with Mozart, the Pope said, that his music “thoroughly penetrated his soul”. Is there any one composer about which you could say the same thing, that his music thoroughly penetrated your soul?
EGAN: Well, I’m a little embarrassed to give the answer, but I’m going to give it anyway. I would say that the composer who moves me and has moved me all my life, more than perhaps anyone else, is no less than Frédéric Chopin.
KAPLAN: Why should one be embarrassed about that? He may be the greatest composer of piano music.
EGAN: I think one of the great, great composers of all time, quite apart from just the piano music, I think the art of his composition is magnificent. Now, I know his orchestrations were not great, but a lot of people, it seems to me, think of Chopin as something less than Beethoven and Brahms and Mozart and so forth. But I believe if you listen to it, this master of melody, this master of unexpected harmonies, this master, it seems to me, of a whole national understanding of music, and I’m from Chicago, you know, so I have a lot of Polish connections. I believe that he is the one who has gone deepest into my own heart.
KAPLAN: And yet today, I see you have no Chopin on your list, but I understand you’ve selected music around which it impacted on your life. But I’m surprised to see, and I was surprised to see, when your list came in, that there is no sacred music on your list. No Bach B minor Mass, no Verdi Requiem, no Mozart Requiem, Brahms.
EGAN: Well, I’ll tell you, for me, all great music is sacred. And I would not have chosen the ones that you mentioned because I would think of this program as not a program about religious music, and when the Pope was here, I worked for hours and hours on the choice of what we would be singing. And sacred music means a whole lot to me, but the music I chose, I tried to make kind of the music that’s sacred for everyone.
KAPLAN: Well, while we’re talking about church music, I wonder, do you have a favorite hymn?
EGAN: Actually, I do. I would say its César Franck’s Panis Angelicus. It’s a masterpiece I think in every way, it’s marvelously prayerful, it’s one of the most familiar hymns by choirs that are able to do great music, and I had it for the funerals of both my mother and my father. And the Holy Father started out his visit in the United States in Washington. And they sang the Panis Angelicus in Washington, and I knew they were going to sing it, and so they took it away from us, we weren’t able to repeat it, you know. But I would say that the Panis Angelicus of César Franck is a masterpiece and a marvelous prayer and I would list it as number one.
[Music]
KAPLAN: An excerpt of César Franck’s Panis Angelicus, sung by José Carreras with the Vienna Symphony Orchestra led by Uwe Christian Harrer. The favorite hymn of my guest today on “Mad About Music” the Archbishop of New York, Cardinal Edward Egan. You know I understand there was a secret weapon behind the choir preparing so diligently at St. Joseph’s for the Pope, and I suppose at St. Patrick’s, also. I read that you had sent a big box of chocolates to the choir at St. Patrick’s when they were rehearsing. Was this a reward or a bribe?
EGAN: Well, I sent more than one. And I believe that the choir should know that the local bishop esteems their work and admires them and loves them. And so I sent more than one box of chocolate, and it was just kind of my way of saying, “hang in there, you’re doing a great job”.
KAPLAN: All right, well you’re doing a great job so far, so then, let’s return to your music list, and our next selection on that list is Schubert.
EGAN: Right. You were mentioning that my list is largely piano music. However, when I was in high school, we had a wonderful orchestra. And there were many who played the piano, and we didn’t need another pianist. And so I was assigned to learn the cello, believe it or not. So, I learned to play the cello very poorly. And so I played the cello in high school and in college and I loved the music of Schubert in a very special way. And one time, I discovered the Piano Trio in B flat, and someone asked me, if you only could take one piece of music with you to the desert island, what would it be? And I answered the second movement of this absolutely exquisite creation of Schubert.
[Music]
KAPLAN: An excerpt from the second movement of Schubert’s Trio No. 1 with Isaac Stern on the violin, Leonard Rose – cello, and Eugene Istomin, on the piano. A selection of my guest today on “Mad About Music”, the Archbishop of New York, Cardinal Edward Egan. When we return we’ll discuss how the music program at St. Patrick’s Cathedral stacks up against the competition, what other churches are doing in the city.
[Station Break]
This is Gilbert Kaplan with my guest today on “Mad About Music”, the Archbishop of New York, Cardinal Edward Egan. Let’s now turn to the music program of St. Patrick’s Cathedral. How do you feel the program stacks up against what the other churches in the city are doing?
EGAN: Well, I think it’s improving. You may know that now we have a rather impressive concert series, and we can do much more, it seems to me, and I know that a lot of the people in New York who are friendly with me would like to see that music program for the general public improved, because we do, I think, eight major concerts a year. And they’re free concerts, and they sometimes would be completely filling the Cathedral; at other times, maybe a half or two thirds, and I think it’s a great contribution to the community, because going to a concert these days is a very expensive enterprise. And so I would say, stay tuned, I hope we begin to do even more.
KAPLAN: I think in general, there is an impression that, of surprise that, given your passion for music, that the financial resources that are used for music at St. Patrick’s are probably not as much as many people think they ought to be. Now, I have no idea what they are, but what do you say about that?
EGAN: Well, I’ve never heard it said, to tell you the truth, the financial resources for the Cathedral music are pretty much determined by the rector of the Cathedral. And I’ve not known that they’ve felt that they were, you know, not having enough money available. I’ll look into that but you know, you never can really do all that you’d like to do. I believe that we’ve tried to do a good job, and I didn’t know that people felt that the financial resources were inadequate; I’ll have to talk to Monsignor Ritchie and see what the financial resources are.
KAPLAN: OK. Well, in an interview, you were asked what your biggest accomplishment in New York has been during your tenure here, and you said, “Leading people in Prayer.”
EGAN: Right.
KAPLAN: What would you regard as your most significant accomplishment in shaping the music program at the Cathedral?
EGAN: I think that I have chosen a very excellent director, and I think that together we have decided that we would see to it that we kept the total tradition of sacred music, of church music, not just what we might call the last thirty or so years. There was getting to be, it seemed to me, too much of the more recent hymns, and then, too much of the music that goes back to the classical polyphony of the 1500’s. I have tried to see to it that we cover the waterfront; and if we do that, that would be, forgive this – my greatest contribution.
KAPLAN: Well, however broad or narrow the field is there is never a controversy over whether to include Beethoven, right? And I see he is the next composer on your list today.
EGAN: Yes, no controversy at all. A giant of giants. I lived in Rome twenty-three years, and in the middle time that I lived in Rome, I was a professor at a seminary, the North American College in Rome. And one day, I met a pianist by the name of Leonard Pennario. And Leonard had a marvelous personality, an ebullient, smiling, happy, enthusiastic personality. And we started talking, and in the course of the conversation, I mentioned that I occasionally played the piano. So he said, “What are you playing?” I said, “Well, you know, I’m kind of playing the Pathétique of Beethoven”. So, he said, “Well, play it for me.” So, I played the first two movements. I didn’t try the third. And I received a master class from him. He pulled up the chair, told me what I was doing wrong, especially in the second movement, keeping the melody absolutely in control and watching out that I was changing the rhythms in the second movement, and so forth and even corrected some of my notes in the first movement, and so forth, and I felt that that was my one and only master class. And I would say that I knew few people that loved to perform as this man did. So, he’s my one master class, and that’s why I mentioned the lovely Pathétique.
[Music]
KAPLAN: An excerpt from the First Movement of Beethoven’s Pathétique Sonata performed by the legendary Artur Schnabel -- both the music and the performer chosen by my guest today on “Mad About Music”, the Archbishop of New York, Cardinal Edward Egan. You know, before we were discussing music at St. Patrick’s and now I’d like to ask you about another aspect of church music which is a genuine fight that seems to be brewing concerning electric guitars during the mass. I understand that in Italy they often use electric guitars and in Spain, Flamenco music has even shown up. But the Pope has demanded an end to this, saying guitars are inconsistent with what music in the church ought to be. Now one Cardinal has gone public to disagree. I wrote down what he said: “better to have guitars on the altar than empty churches.” Where do you come out on this?
EGAN: Oh, I would have no problem with that either. We just simply have not had at the Cathedral any tradition of that kind. But we have many, many parishes, here in the Archdiocese of New York, that have guitars, and music that would be very much music of the people of the particular area. So, while St. Patrick’s Cathedral is something quite apart, let me assure you that next Sunday, I believe, I’ll be in a parish, Sacred Heart Parish here in Manhattan, and I understand I am to do the first mass in English and the second mass in Spanish. Now, I am sure, that during that second mass, you’re going to have guitars and all of this and that, and it’s wonderful. And it will be in Spanish and so forth. I don’t know that the Holy Father has said that we are not to have guitars in church and so forth, because we have them, and no one has ever told me not to.
KAPLAN: Well, I think if I can believe what I read in the newspapers, he did give a talk on this and was totally against it. And I wondered: what authority does the Pope have on a matter like that within the church? Can he only give advice and hope people follow him? Or, can he actually make it an edict that there will not be, say, electric guitars in churches?
EGAN: Well I suppose he could make it an edict, but I’m sure that that’s not the kind of thing that he’d be making edicts about. The parishes that have these kinds of things are expressing something that’s truly theirs, it’s something that’s truly holy, and I would be there delighted and I am, Sunday after Sunday, when I am away from the Cathedral.
KAPLAN: Well, this discussion of what is appropriate music in the church leads nicely to the next section of our show which we call the “wildcard” where you have a chance to pick music that is not classical or opera, sacred music, it can be anything - as wild as you like by the way. So what did you bring us today?
EGAN: My selection is “New York, New York”, not the one written by Leonard Bernstein for “On the Town,” but rather the one that John Kander and Fred Ebb wrote for Liza Minnelli in the film that made her so very famous, and of course the song that Frank Sinatra gave to the world in many ways. I am not a New Yorker, as you know; I came here first as an auxiliary bishop to Cardinal O’Connor in 1985, and then I left in 1989, but came back in 2000, so I have tried to become a real New Yorker. I, you know tell you, with striking my breast, I was a Cubs fan, you know, all my life. And of course, I’ve turned my back on that. I’m completely a Yankees fan now. But, this to me sums up New York in a very special way for someone who has become a New Yorker, and hopes to live the rest of his life right here in New York. I think it’s a great song, and I know that in the Olympics in 1984, it was played; and at Yankee Stadium, as you know there was a bit of controversy about it, whether they would play the Liza Minnelli performance, or the Frank Sinatra performance. And it’s a great song, all you have to hear is that little beginning, that is the background, before you know the whole world’s going to start singing, and so, being a New Yorker of recent vintage, I think this sort of sums up my understanding of this wonderful, wonderful town.
[Music]
KAPLAN: “New York, New York” sung by Frank Sinatra, the “wildcard” choice of my guest on “Mad About Music”, the Archbishop of New York, Cardinal Edward Egan. Now as you know your “wildcard” is one of your only selections not for the piano. So what about performing piano music? Who are your favorite pianists?
EGAN: I would have to say that for Chopin, whom I mentioned, I don’t think anyone touches Rubinstein. I think that he simply knocked the ball out of the park. And I could mention this, too, that I actually heard Rubinstein play both of the Chopin concerti at Orchestra Hall, many, many years ago. And he was up in years, and it wasn’t the same Rubinstein that had done the recordings many years before, but the feeling in Orchestra Hall in Chicago was a feeling like no other that you ever could imagine. You felt as though the melodies were flowing out right from that piano right into your heart and back, and I’ll never forget that he came out and did two encores. And I didn’t see it, but somebody said to me that at a certain point, he turned to a lady in the audience and winked at her before he started the Nocturne in E flat, you know? And I think it made it all the more wonderful. I hope it was true. But certainly Rubinstein for Chopin. When you talk about Beethoven, I believe that my hero of heroes always was and always will be Artur Schnabel. Now, that really dates me, I know; but Schnabel’s recording of the thirty-two sonatas is available now, you can buy it, and I really think it’s the criterion.
KAPLAN: Well then, I think then let’s continue on with another piano work. This one by Brahms.
EGAN: The beauty of this piece is that it’s, I think, the quintessential expression of subtlety. There’s nothing that’s pushed in this. This is a subtle, beautiful development by Brahms, and I would say that this intermezzo, the second in the Opus 117, is particularly beloved for me because when I studied it, the teacher I had had been studying it in Nantucket with Leonard Shure. Leonard Shure was a well-known pianist, who was the assistant to Artur Schnabel. So, when I studied this intermezzo, in fact all three of them of the opus, I always felt that Schnabel was teaching me through Leonard Shure, and of course through my teacher. So, whenever I listen to this lovely, subtle piece of music, I think of myself as sort of inheriting some of the wonder that Leonard Shure put into his Brahms. And of course that Schnabel taught him.
[Music]
KAPLAN: Brahms’ Intermezzo No. 2 performed by pianist Arthur Rubinstein, music chosen by my guest today on “Mad About Music”, the Archbishop of New York, Cardinal Edward Egan. When we return I’ll be asking Cardinal Egan whether music can have the same power as prayer.
[Station Break]
This is Gilbert Kaplan with my guest today on “Mad About Music”, the Archbishop of New York, Cardinal Edward Egan. As we get deeper into the show today it becomes increasingly clear, I think, that for you music is something highly personal. So, I'd like to know a bit more about the power of music—that is the power of music in your own life. The Pope has said that music is – and this is a direct quote: “an authentic art, just like prayer.” So, along with prayer, do you ever turn to music at difficult moments for consolation, or when you just have to make a difficult decision?
EGAN: Absolutely. And I would have to say that I do see music as a prayer. I believe that our principal duty here in this world is to give adoration to our God. And I believe when we admire what is good and true and beautiful, we are admiring a reflection, we are seeing in what is good, true and beautiful, some kind of a reflection of the Divinity. So I see music as a prayer as well.
KAPLAN: Do you have any moments you can reflect on, when you faced making a difficult decision, when you thought, maybe I’ll put a little bit of this or that on, and what might it have been that you would put on?
EGAN: Well, I can’t say anything like that, but I’ll say something near it. When I was deciding whether or not I would go to a seminary, I remember making the decision in Holy Name Cathedral in Chicago, listening to what we call the “Tenebre,” written by da Victoria, and the choir at that time was at the level that I hope our choir here in New York will be with the great classical polyphonist, one day, and at this “Tenebre”, and the way we used to have it during Holy Week, the lights were all turned off, and the candles were extinguished, one by one, the apostles leaving the Lord. And I remember being swept up in the beauty of that magnificent 16th century masterpiece as a boy. And this had a big effect upon my decision.
KAPLAN: How emotional is your response to music? For example, do you find yourself at times in tears when you’re listening to music?
EGAN: I can’t say I’d be in tears, no. I wish I could give you a case of music that had done it to me. I think music really more buoys me up than anything else.
KAPLAN: Well, my next question is then, I guess, not really about buoying you up, because as someone who regularly officiates at funerals and who loves music so much, I wonder if you’ve decided at all what music you would like played at your own funeral?
EGAN: I didn’t expect that question, and let me tell you what I would do if I had the opportunity. And, I would say that if it ever were possible for me to choose what it would be, it would be the Perosi Requiem. I don’t know what’ll happen, but if they did have the Perosi Requiem, it would be wonderful.
KAPLAN: That’s a wonderful answer. I hope there are a few other questions that surprised you, but we’ll go on. Now, if there’s any music, we’ve been talking about emotional music, if there is any music that can surely touch your emotions, it’s your final selection, the extraordinary concluding trio from Strauss’ Rosenkavalier.
EGAN: Well, it’s a triumph and it’s I think as beautiful as anything you’d ever want to hear. Let me tell you how I came to love Der Rosenkavalier. When I was a seminarian, back in the 1950’s, one of my classmates was the now Cardinal Francis Stafford, who is a Cardinal in Rome. And Frank was not terribly informed about music, but he put up with my enthusiasms, and we actually managed to get tickets in Rome for Das Rheingold in Bayreuth. And so the two of us went to hear Das Rheingold. And when it was over, Frank turned to me and said, “I have no idea what you could possibly have heard or seen in that. I don’t like it at all.” Well, Das Rheingold is a kind of a heavy start for one’s operatic experience, but in any event, we continued down toward Rome. We went to Munich, and in Munich, I actually had two tickets for Der Rosenkavalier, with von Karajan and Elisabeth Schwarzkopf. So we went in and heard that, and after that, as we walked out, Cardinal Stafford became an opera fan. And I’ve kidded him many times that I really am the one that brought him forward in the musical world. So, having heard that incredible performance with no less than Schwarzkopf and von Karajan, and I believe it was in the Prinzregenten Theater in Munich. I’m 99% sure. I have never forgotten that, and I love it now, and there is a magnificent recording, of course, with Schwarzkopf and von Karajan, and when you get to that ending with that trio, you never think it’s going to stop going up and finally it achieves whatever it is that we all want to achieve, that marvelous resolution, and so I have such a fine memory of having taught opera to Cardinal Stafford through Schwarzkopf and von Karajan, and I thought that’s what I would choose.
[Music]
KAPLAN: The final trio from Richard Strauss’ Der Rosenkavalier sung by Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, Christa Ludwig and Teresa Stich-Randall with the Philharmonia Orchestra, all under the baton of Herbert von Karajan, the final selection of my guest today on “Mad About Music”, the Archbishop of New York, Cardinal Edward Egan. Powerful music that trio. And music you used to seduce another Cardinal into appreciating opera. And I say seduced purposely because another guest on “Mad About Music” also selected that trio from Rosenkavalier. That guest, the well-known Hollywood and Broadway director, Mike Nichols, he picked it for a different reason. He used it earlier in his life, he said, for seduction of the more traditional type, as I’d like you now to hear it in his own words:
NICHOLS: The Trio from the Rosenkavalier was just out and out, a way of getting girls, you know. It was simply saying, “have I got something to play for you”, and sitting them down and playing them the trio, which it has to be said, almost always worked.
KAPLAN: So that’s Mike Nichols about the seductive power of Rosenkavalier. What do you think about that?
EGAN: Well, I think that Richard Strauss seduces us all. And not just in Der Rosenkavalier. I think that Ariadne auf Naxos and especially the wonderful section that they give to the young Italian girl that sings music almost as marvelous as that trio. So, I would have to say to Mr. Nichols that he ought to broaden his spectrum and take a look and see if Ariadne might do the job too.
KAPLAN: All right well, beyond seduction, you know there’s a lot of fantasy in Rosenkavalier and we have a fantasy portion of our program which I call “Fantasyland”, where every guest, and that includes you, has to reveal their fantasies, their musical fantasies. And in your case, having studied the piano so much, I’d like to rule that out as a fantasy. And I’d like you to tell us that if you could be a big star, an opera singer, a composer, a musician playing the violin, a conductor, what would it be?
EGAN: Well, you’ll have to forgive me, but I often wondered what would have happened if I had pursued music and had had an opportunity to become a choir director, believe it or not. I would say that if you handed me the baton, and I had this choir in front of me, my fantasy would be to direct a great choir as part of a mass, as part of a liturgical service, as part of a worship. I wouldn’t be interested in doing it necessarily in a concert hall. But, St. Patrick’s Cathedral would be wonderful, but they’ve given me another job and so I put that into the hands of someone else with far greater talent.
KAPLAN: Well, we’re talking about fantasies, of course, and you certainly could do it sometime, why not? Cardinal Edward Egan, you’ve been a superb, wonderful guest, and provide a powerful example of the power music can provide in all our lives. This is Gilbert Kaplan, for “Mad About Music.”